HD wrote:
> "B J Foster" wrote in message
> news:g98lpu$oo6$1@aioe.org...
>> HD wrote:
>>> "B J Foster" wrote in message
>>> news:g9788f$439$1@aioe.org...
>>>> HD wrote:
>>>>> "B J Foster" wrote in message
>>>>> news:g973dd$foq$1@aioe.org...
>>>>>> HD wrote:
>>>>>>> "B J Foster" wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:g94kfd$lce$1@aioe.org...
>>>>>>>> Cruizin wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "David Moss" wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:Xns9B07E1F962518q0320811mailconnectu@61.9.191.5...
>>>>>>>>>> "Cruizin" wrote in
>>>>>>>>>> news:6%atk.31754$IK1.3181@news-server.bigpond.net.au:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Any other organisation that was so riddled with paedophiles,
>>>>>>>>>>> protects
>>>>>>>>>>> paedophiles from prosecution, and generally condones paedophiles
>>>>>>>>>>> would
>>>>>>>>>>> be closed down.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why is the catholic church so different?
>>>>>>>>>> Size.
>>>>>>>>>> If you group together a sufficient number of people under one name
>>>>>>>>>> chances
>>>>>>>>>> are you will find paedophiles among them. If you scrutinise the
>>>>>>>>>> number of
>>>>>>>>>> people who call themselves Catholic it is statistically ivevitable
>>>>>>>>>> you will
>>>>>>>>>> find paedophiles among them. Sad but true.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problem seems to lie with the catholic priesthood, not
>>>>>>>>> catholics in general - I just wonder what say BHP would do if it
>>>>>>>>> found that a group of paedophiles was operating within its midst.
>>>>>>>>> Would they just move the individuals concerned to other sites?
>>>>>>>> More to the point, what if a commercial child-care company (e.g. ABC
>>>>>>>> learning centres) discovered a paedophile ring in their midst?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Then destroy all the records and demonise the complainants? I dont
>>>>>>>>> think so. If found out we would howl and scream until the directors
>>>>>>>>> and managers were behind bars and the company broken up. Why not
>>>>>>>>> the same for the catholic church - its just another business - one
>>>>>>>>> of the oldest maybe, but still only selling the idea of eternal
>>>>>>>>> life or eternal damnation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The risk for the rest of us (non catholics) is that when we come
>>>>>>>>> into contact with catholics we dont know if they are potential or
>>>>>>>>> current paedophiles (there is only 2 choices for catholics). Most
>>>>>>>>> paedophiles were molested as children, and then perpetuate the
>>>>>>>>> crime against children when they reach adulthood. Closing down or
>>>>>>>>> reforming the catholic church would go a long way of breaking the
>>>>>>>>> cycle of paedophilia.
>>>>>>>> It's about 5%, so about every 20th priest that you meet will be a
>>>>>>>> paedophile. Not enough to brand the whole organisation but certainly
>>>>>>>> enough to warrant serious precautions, like never leaving children
>>>>>>>> alone with a priest and closely questioning any new priest in your
>>>>>>>> parish.
>>>>>>>> I would certainly avoid sending my kids to a catholic school.
>>>>>>>> Consider that in a school with (say) 10 staff, the probability of
>>>>>>>> encountering a paedophile is 40%. With 20 staff, it increases to 64%
>>>>>>> Collectively Catholic schools have over 20.000 staff.
>>>>>>> What Percentage are paedophiles?
>>>>>> That's not the point. Kids will not encounter the 20,000 staff but
>>>>>> they will most likely encounter every staff member at a particular
>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The point is this: If probability of one staff member being a
>>>>>> paedophile is 5% and the school has 20 staff members then the
>>>>>> probability of at least one being a paedophile is 64%. Or to put it
>>>>>> another way, kids at 2 out of 3 Catholic schools will encounter a
>>>>>> paedophile.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a conservative estimate because the offenders will in fact go
>>>>>> out of their way to seek encounters. Estimates of the number of
>>>>>> victims per offender range from 50 to 250.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since Catholic schools are not run by priests, how does that pervert
>>>>>>> your statistics?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> True. I have no data on what percentage of Catholic teachers are
>>>>>> paedophiles.
>>>>> But that didn't stop you talking about and seeking out Catholic
>>>>> Schools.
>>>>> Being operted by ordinary, mostly married and not always Catholic
>>>>> teachers, why would Catholic schools be any different from State
>>>>> schools?
>>>>>
>>>> Okay, one thing at a time.
>>>> 1. Not sure what you mean by 'ordinary, mostly married'.
>>>> The theory of a link between celibacy and paedophilia has been debunked
>>>> (there are just as many paedophiles in the Anglican church)
>>> You live in the past.
>>> Hardly any teachers in Catholic schools are brothers or priests.
>> "POLICE are investigating claims that up to 40 boys were .ually abused
>> over seven years by priests and teachers in an exclusive private school.
>> ...
>> A former priest at the school has been charged with 33 counts, a former
>> teacher has already been convicted of several offences and two other
>> teachers are under investigation".
>> http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21498,24248942-948,00.html
>>
>>
> A long time ago. when many schoolswere run by brothers. There are still a
> few brothers involved in Catholic education but I don't know of any
> inclusively run by brothers. Like priests, there is an acute shortage.
>
Why would this make any difference?
The original poster said:
"Any other organisation that was so riddled with paedophiles, protects
paedophiles from prosecution, and generally condones paedophiles would
be closed down. Why is the catholic church so different?"
Are you saying that teachers are more trustworthy than priests? Why?
Why should paedophiles be any less attracted to the teaching profession
than to the priesthood?
The big difference between church schools and public schools is the
management. And the management hasn't changed.
>
>
>>>> 2. 'Not always Catholic teachers'?
>>>> False. To join a Catholic school you need to be accredited - that's code
>>>> for Catholic.
>>> False, My son, in a Catholic school has several teachers (Male and
>>> Female) who are not Catholics.
>>>
>>>
>>>> from the CEO: "Primary teachers in Catholic schools usually teach
>>>> Religious Education, and need to be accredited to do so".
>>> False, Religious Education is a subject and is being thought as a
>>> subject. A Maths teacher doesn't teach Religious education.
>> I am quoting the employment terms of the CEO (Catholic Education Office),
>> Sydney
>>
>> *All* teacher employees need to be accredited regardless of what subject
>> they teach.
>>
>> Three job ads chosen at random:
>> "Please send curriculum vitae nominating 3 referees (present employer,
>> past employer and Parish Priest)"
>>
>> "Essential Criteria: A knowledge of and commitment to the Mission of the
>> Catholic School"
>>
>> "ESSENTIAL CRITERIA
>> * An understanding of, and commitment to the Mission of the Catholic
>> School"
>
> Yes, Any teacher must comply with the mission statement of the individual
> School.
> Such statements usually contain the teaching of Gospel values. You can
> adhere to such values without being a Catholic.
Okay, say I accept what you say - non-Catholics can become teachers at
Catholic schools - hard to believe - but we'll grant this as a given.
Why is it relevant? No-one said that Catholicism or belief in
catholicism is the cause of paedophilia, thus why should it matter
whether or not the staff are teachers or priests or catholics or not?
IOW, your 'Not always Catholic teachers' is just a red herring.
The original poster said:
"Any other organisation that was so riddled with paedophiles, protects
paedophiles from prosecution, and generally condones paedophiles would
be closed down. Why is the catholic church so different?"
This says nothing about beliefs, or what profession is responsible. It
says nothing about religion. In fact, all it says is "organisation".
An organisation is not a thinking being, it's management do that - so
he's really saying:
"Any CEO who protects paedophiles and condoned paedophilia in her
organisation would be prosecuted"
Substitute 'CEO' with 'Bishop' and you get to the heart of the question.
>
>
>>
>>>> 3. Why would Catholic schools be different?
>>>> Well they wouldn't be different to (say) Anglican schools - the evidence
>>>> is that the percentage of paedophile priests is about the same.
>>> There are no bloody priests in Catholic Schools. Don't you get it?
>>> They haven't even got enough priests for the churches.
>> "Dubbo Catholic priest Father Paul Devitt yesterday spoke in support of St
>> Stanislaus’ College at Bathurst as police broadened an investigation into
>> alleged .ual assaults at the prestigious boarding school 30 years ago.
>>
>> A 65-year-old former priest has been charged with 33 counts of .ual
>> assault and gross acts of indecency on five juveniles, aged between 10 and
>> 18.
>>
>> The man has faced court and is scheduled to reappear next month. Since
>> then, more people have come forward alleging similar assaults by a
>> paedophile ring comprising priests *and* teachers".
>> http://dubbo.yourguide.com.au/news/local/news/general/investigation-into-.ual-assault-claims-broadens/1256358.aspx
>>
>
> A lot has changed in the last 30 years. We can't get any Irish Priests or
> brothers anymore.
> Many Parishes have no permanent priests, Most priests are very old.
>
The management hasn't changed.
>
>>>
>>>> 4. Why would *religious* schools be different?
>>>> I have no data on this, however:
>>>> a) Paedophiles tend to seek out kids, so the proportion *will* be higher
>>>> amongst teachers that the general population
>>> True and that applies to all schools.
>> Does it?
>> Public schools do not protect offending priests, forgive them and transfer
>> them to another diocese.
>
> Private schools do not have Priests.
> Priests are at Churches. While it is unfortunately true that some Bishops
> have moved offending priests instead of doing their duty and reporting the
> matter to the police, it is also true that all priests are moved around from
> one parish to another all the time. When a priest is being accused 20 years
> after the event, chances are that he has worked at several parishes after
> the event or even has committed abuses at several parishes. That does not
> always mean that the Bishop knows about the abuses when moving a Priest. All
> of that has to be investigated by the police.
>
> There is one more problem. When a Paedophile (Priest, Brother or lay person)
> goes to confession and admits his perversion, the priest or Bishop who hears
> his confession can not act on it or report it outside the confessional.
That's irrelevant. At the end of the day, the organisation (ie. it's
management) must obey the laws of the community.
I can think of a 100 ways to solve the problem but the church management
seems determined to *ignore* the problem and hope it goes away.
Careful, because when the community runs out of patience, you may be run
out of town.
>
>>>
>>>> b) The Catholic church has a history of trying to sweep the problem
>>>> under the carpet (unlike State public schools) which tends to create a
>>>> more paedophile-friendly environment - this the proportion will be
>>>> higher
>>> Ancient History.
>> I certainly hope so. As of when?
As of when?
What concrete steps have been taken to stop/prevent paedophilia in the
church?
How many priests have been handed over to the police for prosecution?
How many existing cases are out there, unresolved and ignored where
thousands of people continue to suffer mental trauma from lack of closure?
It's a total disgrace. Jesus had a special place for children - when he
said "Let the little children come to me, and stop keeping them away,
because the kingdom of God belongs to people like these" it was because
the disciples had forgotten their 'mission'.
When the management of the church transfer a paedophile from town X to
town Y instead of handing the bastard over to the police, then they are
condemning another 47.5 kids to trauma and suffering - they have
forgotten their mission (Jesus' mission) and they don't belong there.
I see apologies from the pope & hear some nice-sounding statements of
empathy with victime, but I don't see changes in accountability or
policies or public commitments being made or paedophiles being handed
over to the police.
Any time a case does come to light, surprise surprise it happened 20 or
30 or 40 years ago.
For example:
"...an unimaginable secret has been stored for more than 20 years. A
former priest at the school..."
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,24247760-5007132,00.html
Well no-one believes this BS anymore. Everyone by now is well aware of
this particular 'spin'.
Unfortunately it appears that the church management are more interested
in protecting the institution and it's assets than the kids. That's sad
- because they've lost their way.
>>
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